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FAQs: Can I intern for DiS? Can I write for DiS? (Part 1)
DiS is frequently asked a lot of questions, most of which are asked by a tonne of other people too. So here are some answers to the ones we're a bit sick of repeating the answers to...
Q: Are you looking for interns? Please may I do work experience?
Yes. Here's an ad we've run elsewhere:
From mid-October, Europe’s biggest and most influential online music mag and community, http://drownedinsound.com, is looking for “space-age gunge-slingers.” This is an opportunity to get experience within the walls of one of the trailblazers of web journalism and online communities.We’re looking for highly self-motivated individuals, of a slightly geeky persuasion, with what some people would consider a deranged passion for music, to come help us. The role will include everything from finding new bands to partaking in brainstorming sessions about the future of the site to organizing post, writing news and potentially a lot-lot more. We'll also be asking you to blog about your experiences to give our readers an insight of what happens at DiS.
This is an ideal opportunity for anyone looking to boot down the door of the music industry and gain experience from our in Paddington, London. DiS will cover some expenses.
Please send your CV and a cover letter stating your availability, why you want to do this, what music you love and anything else you think we should know that separates you from the pack to sean AT drownedinsound DOT com.
Q: Dear Conor McNicholas Esq, I would very much like to write for Kerrang. Please find attached a sample of writing I did three years ago of a band I was somewhat indifferent about and a list of things I would like to do to their singer. Can I write for you?
OH HAI!!!!! Thank you for including us in your copy and pasting of emails to as many people as possible. Lulz. No, sry. Thx.
Q: How do I put myself forward to write for DiS?
Hello eager beaver. Thank you for your message. DiS is often on the look out for the most passionate and knowledgeable music fans, who have an undeniable way with words, to join our ranks.
However, before you get too excited, we are about as picky about writing as we are about music. Over the years we've increasingly increased the gulf between authoritative opinion and annoying amateur first-time writer. We're all for brave ideas and the un-tested, which has been one of the reasons this site has established itself as a fresh, trusted and discernible voice in modern music. We're looking for people who cannot just classify what something is but expand upon it, without things being lost in translation. It may set a high bar but we're looking for the modern Nick Kents, Lester Bangs and/or Richard Meltzers.
If we could make you stand in our porch for three days and nights (like in Fight Club), we would but this is the interweb and we don't have a virtual porch. However, if you don't already run your own blog or haven't written for publications of a similar style to DiS, we'd like you to do the following:
- Please sign-up for a DiS user account
- Once you've signed up you'll find that you have the ability to post user reviews of gigs you've been to and of records you own. Please take some time to submit some reviews in this way or direct to your user blog if we don't have things listed. Ideally these reviews should be about two things you really love and one thing you hate or feel indifferent to.
- Once you've submitted 3-5 examples of your penmanship please drop an email to sean AT drownedinsound DOT com, with a link to your user profile
- Alternatively, if you're looking to write a regular column about your local scene, new music, the charts or anything like that, please submit an example or two to your blog and we'll take it from there.
We do try to get back to as many people as possible, however, this is very much a don't-call-us-we'll-call-you scenario. We get thousands of submissions a year and try to spread out the team as wide as possible in terms of geography, taste, and specialism.
That's part one, we hope this answers some of your questions but please comment below if you require clarification. Coming soon, part two focuses on sending in material to review and how to make a nice cuppa tea.
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Will do all of the above...
This is brilliant - thank you so much for that. It's really refreshing to have clear guidance of what to do to obtain an internship.
I will start blogging...NOW!
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There shouldn't be apostrophes after the names of the writers
Can I have a job now?
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Also, 'organizing' with a z?
I want a job too
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it can be either/or
tis actually the english way with a zed
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of course you can...
of course you can be an intern! we just had to make lots of people redundant and you want to work for free? ...
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fair play
i meant to queue it and read it back, rather than set it live and had changed the phrasing as it needed 'em before.
however, we're looking for people who can express themselves and the odd bit of spag can be sorted out by eagle-eyed subs.
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is the fact that
give up is pictured trying to get a messaeg across?
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*message
promptly follow's gibbard's advice.
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Interesting...
I've always worked under the impression that zed = American bastardisation. Or should that be bastardization?
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so to summarise
DIS has fired all of its great staff and now needs you to come and work for them for free and be happy about it.
(i feel its only a matter of time before i get banned from this site)
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we've always had work experience
and since starting as editor on monday i've had several requests to do so and am grateful of all additional hands on deck - don't think this should be a surprise or warrant these various posts.
and i shouldn't rise to this but to stop a flurry of these: people weren't fired, they were made redundant, which is different. this was because we lost our funding which allowed us to employ a team of staff. DiS has always been run on goodwill and a passion for music, with people who've worked for us in the past going on to be features editors at NME and Kerrang to working for Klaxons management and running Matador uk.
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Is any of this paid in any way?
Even transport costs?
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Over the years we've increasingly increased the gulf between authoritative opinion and annoying amat
please practice what you preach!
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"DiS will cover some expenses."
and we do pay for some contributions and will continue to use some ad money to do so.
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trouble is
good will don't pay the bills.
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I assume
That some form of free tickets for gigs that you want reviewing can be organised?
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we've increasingly increased the gulf between authoritative opinion and annoying amateur first-time
Are you reaching for irony here?
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This sort of thing merely fuels the awful climate in the industry
I would encourage people not to offer their services for free. It’s insulting to ask writers to contribute for no payment, but a little extra sentence on their cv which ultimately wouldn’t be of much use. People contributing for free is simply fuelling the current climate of young people being utterly exploited, particularly within the cultural sectors. If everyone stops, and DiS collapsed it would be a good thing. It is unfair for Sean to expect other people to prop up his own career/site. The quality of writing is never going to be all that great unless writers can have a good chance of a proper career (i.e paid fairly for their time and work) out of it in which they can evolve and gain great experience. Just as within the music industry itself at present. It’s obvious that even the best writers around at present, both journalists and musicians, are in a very screwed situation indeed. The more people in both camps who are happy to be exploited in the short term, the less likely it is that we will ever see a return to a genuine industry in which people are paid for their work instead of the pathetic façade that we are currently presented with. Let’s face it, DiS is in dire difficulty. Given that it’s the most popular independent music site in Europe where does that leave all the many other sites? Screwed, one would imagine, unless they are being funded by rich relatives, which is what a lot of it must boil down to, especially in London.
DiS is a good site, but it should not exist if it has to be propped up with exploitation. People must learn that if they want good things, they have to pay for them, be it DiS and other cultural websites or decent music itself.
There will probably always be enough idiots out there who still believe in the ‘rock n roll dream’ of limousines and endless mountains of money. But it barely exists anymore. I believe if youngsters are intent on music journalism they ought to set up their own website that they can be in charge of as it shows a great deal more initiative, and most importantly, expect nothing in the way of money or a career from it. -
The world tried all that though,
but when 'writers' got paid and got comfortable they, for the most part, got lazy and boring and fat.
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^this
totally
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it can, however
lead onto jobs which do.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
making such sweeping generalisations must feel nice
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what?
my comment was in response to bigbadboy NOT to moderaterock
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And mine was in response to moderaterock
NOT you. Damn this thread system
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yeh good point
so ill just not pay my bills and tell them its because im doing a job im not getting paid for and im sure they'll say... oh ok, we'll just wait for you to pay yours bills until you get that well paid job an internship always leads to... not a problem'
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i agree with bigbadboy
no one should be expected to give there services for no payment...
p.s. paying 'some' expenses is not payment.
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is SPAG still worth 5% in english exams?
It used to be. We were always instructed to write 'DON'T FORGET SPAG' at the top of our exam papers to remind us not to forget it, obvs.
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*their
you should pay to be allowed to write with mistakes like that
also,
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/07/20/104-unpaid-internships/ -
Ouroboros
"Are unpaid internships worth it? Read the reviews http://www.r*te*nter*sh*ps.com/
Write about your own internship experience for a chance at an iPod or $200 cash"
ell oh ell
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maybe
an internship just isn't for you
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thing is Raz
im not looking to write anything for free so it doesn't really matter does it.
i don't understand your linking to that article... it doesn't make any argument for doing an internship especially not a 'cultural' one which I guess DiS would fall under.
So thanks you have proved mine and many others' point.
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you literally
couldn't be much more wrong
"if youngsters are intent on music journalism they ought to set up their own website" - what, and join the blaring cacophony of blogs all with Something Very Important To Say? DiS' name and reputation is invaluable and I know how many doors it's opened for contributers - speaking personally and for other people.
"exploitation" - is a hugely Daily Mail word. Was I being exploited when I was able to go to pretty much any gig I wanted for free, or get packages and packages of CDs before their release date for free, or being able to sit down with artists I love and respect and talk to them about their music? The idea that somehow because I wasn't being paid means what i produced invalid is ludicrous. The reward and results were the same I love writing not only because it's basically the only thing I've been able to do, but because music means so much to me in my life. And moreover, I was able to get my work read by tens of thousands of people every day - would that have been possible if I was writing on dogshitmusic.blogger.blogs.com? Hell no.
The majority of contributors have always worked for free at DiS because they enjoy doing it. It's that enthusiasm that fuelled the site, and the fact that Kev/Al/Sam/Mike were salaried so they could afford to spend hours every day bleeding their eternal love for music into internet format. Also, every single journalist I've ever met said they did a whole load of unpaid work experience - some useful and some not so useful - but it's incredibly important to learn your craft. Without spending so long working for free and without the pressures of having to turn copy round I'd never have developed my own writing style and I'm sure it's the same for everyone else in that position. Of course, it's important not to be taken advantage of but all that requires is simple common sense: DiS is prestigious and bestows this prestige on its contributors.
phew.
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This has been mentioned in an Inspector Morse
episode. All about the crossword.
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^
He's right, you know.
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they're both right
ben is making good points about DiS
bigbadboy is making good points about the culture industries as a whole
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It seems fairly clear who the fool is then.
That's your choice, but it is people like you who are either willing to work for free (or perhaps have inherited wealth/property) who prevent the salaries in the creative industries from reasonably reflecting the basic realities of life in a capitalist society. You ought to be hugely grateful you get a copy of the Foals album this evening instead of downloading it for free tomorrow anyway etc etc...
It's a shame there isn't more money lying around in the industry but only by people refusing to work for free will things grind to a halt before being rebuilt on, one would hope, slightly better terms.
The music world is notorious for people being exploited. It is because 'arty' people are assumed to have zero buisness knowledge. It's true that most place that below the creative side of things. Unfortunately these people are shooting themselves in the head by encouraging the exploitation of themselves and many others across the 'industry'.
As I can reasonably assume that you make next to no money whatsoever (other than unwanted cds sold for pence to the Music Exchange shop in Notting Hill) you are helping place the coffin lid on your own potential career, and quite likely, in the long run, your self respect. Having no cash might seem like a laugh for a year or two but not when there is genuinely no light at the end of the tunnel, as the next group of 18 year olds come along and do their internships for however long before being replaced themselves, and on and on.... with entire businesses being built on the exploitation of poor fools still buying into the fake dreams of the 'pop world'.
Good luck, but I genuinely think it's about time people effectively went on strike about this situation. How many writers on DiS get paid? One. How many bands that are covered by DiS make a living? Probably 5 or less. It is beyond my comprehension why anyone would want to fuel that fire. -
RE : REVOLT (integrity gets you nowhere)
i'd love to see 'the creative' take a stand against the people in charge, but when this happens 'the man' simply looks further down the foodchain and employs someone for less money, with less talent, yet their hand is bitten off due to it being somebody's 'lucky break'. i've been photographing bands for years and told countless magazines to 'pogo on that, you twat !' due to their lack of respect, but they don't care. souless, digital camera-using saps are ten-a-penny nowadays...their work might be shite, but it's cheap and convenient. (thus is the way of our modern-day culture). ha ha ha ha....
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would just like to say
i have no idea where you get these 'facts' from.
more than one writer/contributor at dis has always been paid and we still continue to pay for some contributions. but when we're talking about a few days or maybe a couple of weeks of peoples time, it's because it's an experience. they're not 'taking our jobs', it's an entry level position at a company which has very little money.
i want people to do things because they want to do it, writing because they need to do it, not because they're getting paid (although, people do get paid and get trips away, entry into pretty much any gig they want, get exposed to a lot of music, etc).
dis ran for 6 years before it even got close to covering the rent on my studio flat and only then it was because of doing it for all that time working 3-6 other jobs.
anyone who doesn't get this, isn't going to apply.
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fair dos
and clearly you would rather it be the case that there was a lot of money knocking around and people could be paid fairly and everyone could live happily ever after writing about the bands they love and not having to phone their parents for 20 quid every other week.
Having to rely largely on internships is a real shame and doesn't do justice to the potential of the site or the abilities of the writers themselves, as I'm sure you would agree. There is a basic matter of principles here, although acheiving a balance between those and the need to survive in the marketplace has probably never been more difficult.
It would be great if there was a decent solution to all this but clearly the industry is in the midst of quite huge changes. I do, however, resent the idea that it is fair for anyone to work for free in a world which makes immense financial demands on every person seven days a week. Anything that encourages that is, to my mind, somewhat repugnant.
It might be interesting to delve a little deeper into the truths behind the pop star veils that we are presented with. I reckon a lot of people would be genuinely interested to know more about the mechanics of the industry and how these bands survive, or not. There are probably a lot out there who think everyone they hear on Radio 1 must be doing alright for themselves and it is a real shame that so many are perhaps under many mistaken impressions about the reality of the music industry. -
Thanks!
Thanks for posting this information; it's incredibly motivating to know that someone out there is actually interested in what people might be writing about music. Maybe this will inspire me to actually keep up that elusive music blog, rather than giving up on it every three months, before guiltily crawling back to it, like a father who has deserted his own child.
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hang on
I'm the fool? Cock off, child.
Writing, just as with any kind of creativity, is a craft that needs to be learned. Plumbers take on apprentices who earn a pittance; writers work for free to develop their own style and voice. This is by no means the only industry that operates along these lines and, what's more, it isn't going to change any time soon. As I said before there is the opportunity for writers to be exploited (especially young, naive ones) but there is even more opportunity for writers to flourish, in whatever fashion.
"the music world is notorious for people being exploited" - yeah, usually the dumb fucks buying the music. It has a reputation for people being exploited, yeah, but people either side of the journalistic line make plenty cash to be able to survive. Your entire argument seems to hinge on the idea that by working for free/not-much-cash that people are handicappling themselves and the industry. You forget that to work in the music industry is a total fucking privilege and one that is by no means a 'real job'. My house mates wake up at 6am, go to work, be miserable at work and then come home miserable because they spent 9 hours doing something that doesn't turn them on. I get to go to work, love what I do and come home with fewer pounds but more love in my heart. And that's handicapping the industry? No fucking way. I work in this world because I love and adore it.
But what world do you live in, where this endless conveyor belt of "groups of 18 year olds" come along and replace all us mid-20s hacks like Menudo but without the blowjobs? All that assumption foes is paint the picture of a world where considered opinion is worth less than blind youthful exuberance - the world where each human being owns a blog but no one reads each other's. Great. A society of sollipsistic ramblings designed to promote every single possible point of view without considering why critics get in the position they do, why they're able to eke out a living by talking about music, or film, or art, or television.
Another assumption you're labouring under is that music criticism/journalism/PR is, in fact, a real job. It's not. It's a fucking hoot. The idea of being paid a few quid is laughable, let alone a yearly salary. Jesus fuck, it's people rabbiting about pop music! And you somehow expect that to be worth anything? You think that art critics fulfill some vital role in the furthering of human society? Hell no. We exist because we exist; it is purely cyclical. Some DIY labels make zero cash and yet manage to put out some of the finest music known to humanity - but are they ENTITLED to remuneration? No. They deserve it, arguably, but the idea that art should correspond to money is a spurious claim. And if the artists can't make money because fucking idiotic kids "download the Foals torrent the next day" or however you put it, then the critics shouldn't either.
You might've realised that the problem lies not with the industry - even though it is duty bound to attempt to find solutions - but with the broadband-enabled, over-privileged middle-class kids who believe that because they have the capacity to download that means they are entitled to. Music is being devalued, but by the consumer. The culture of convenience means that lazy people get fat on whatever they can get for free - and music journalists aren't going to get paid until fucking cunts stop justifying to themselves why they aren't going to pay for the Foals album and cough up their fucking cash instead of buying another flatscreen TV.
Oh, and you "can reasonably assume I make next to no money"? Get fucked you pretentious cocksnaffler. I earn enough to pay my rent in London, eat, live and purchase how I want, and there's enough left over to buy all the Springsteen albums I don't own. So there goes your theory. And this is burning away my self respect? Not a chance.
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i dont think
on any occasion have i said we're expecting people to work for free.
have you read Andrew Keen's The Cult of the Amateur by any chance? if not, it's well worth reading.
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I fucking love.....
.....this site!
Thats my 10p!
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ah ben patashnik
defender of the faith. you go girl! etc
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Here here, Ben.
See. This guy's a writer.
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very interesting indeed
Lots of his points are valid - we are certainly in danger of entering a new dark age. But what sort of criteria would you employ to distinguish the respective characteristics of amateur opinion from that of a professional? A man sat in a field for five years could develop just as sophisticated a level of critical thought with regard to culture as somebody sat in the NME office. A trucker listening to the radio all day is no less qualified to comment than someone in Shoreditch who has been granted early access to a new Johnny Foreigner b-side.
The amount of good music that DiS throws in the bin before it has even been listened to is probably staggering. Why? Because there aren't enough hours in the day for people to listen to it all. Fair enough, but DiS's own content is probably highly determined by who you went drinking with last night etc etc... just as with in any industry. -
alright
well good luck to you. It's nice to hear that someone's actually earning their bread and butter.
Yours sincerely
Pretentious Cocksnaffler Esq -
erm, may i just say....
that Plumbers don't tend to take on many apprentices nowadays (plumbing being my 'proper' job and all that). they ride the 'Wave of Emigration' and employ untrained Eastern Europeans because they are cheap(anybody seen 'It's a Free World' ?) but i get your stripe-earning-point and all that...valid points a'boot on this thread !
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Good stuff
Very well said.
Although the middle-class element seems a bit redundant, the comment about over-privileged kids thinking that the capacity to download entitles them to free music is a great one.
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does anyone know
if this is a physical internship in the sense that you have to go to their office, or can it be done from afar... maybe that would defeat the purpose of an internship, but then this is an internet based site.
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I would also like to know this
for a friend of mine who isn't on the board (yet). His question is:
"Would you be in the DIS office 9-5, and therefore expected to somehow live in London on no wage, or can it be done by proxy"
If it is a full time thing, with only some expenses, then I can't see how someone not from London can apply, unless they have mega bucks.
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thoughts...
http://fromsinking.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/on-the-pros-and-cons-of-internship/
Basically: if you are in London/can reach it cheaply enough AND have financial support of some kind to cover the duration of any internship (i.e. you are not losing your own money), I recommend signing up.
If you're out of uni with debts, have just moved to London and want to boost the CV, get a paid job first and build the body of your writing work over time, asking places like DiS (and other sites/zines like Angry Ape, Rocklouder, Rockfeedback, Gigwise, Contactmusic, Artrocker, etc) if there are writing opportunities.
Two very different sides to doing unpaid intern work. It can be a benefit, but rarely - all depends on the mindset of the individual taking it on.
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it's ideally in/near london
upto £20 a day expenses (so that you could get in from say Reading/Oxford/Maidenhead/Brighton/Cambridge/Colchester/etc). And at the moment the folks we have had are in from 10-30ish 'til 6, 5 days a week but am looking for people from mid-October and if they can only do a couple of afternoons a week, so be it. mostly about some extra hands on deck. we're obviously not expecting nor demanding the world from people and wouldn't want to overstretch anyone and filter through things accordingly.
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What Mike says...
when I started photographing for DiS (and various other things) I was working full time as a receptionist... You can still build up a good body of work whilst working 9-5 paying the bills (if like me you can't afford to work for free, or just expenses).
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"(if like me you can't afford to work for free, or just expenses)"
FULL TIME... obviously i had to do so with the music photography (I know, I know I am reinforcing a terribly classist system by doing so) ... but I still had the day job. Even now I have to split my days between freelancing part time and working in an office 2 days a week to make rent.
Oh and kudos to Ben and his brilliant turn of phrase! "Pretentious Cocksnaffler" - sheer brilliance... :)
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I like the
Colchester name drop.
That's all I have to say at the moment.
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if i still listened to indie
i'd do it. you pay expenses?????
lol. :)
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god i've been having this conversation
with interns all week. I reckon you can probably expect to work in the music industry for a minimum of one year temping or working for free, before some kind of paid regular work comes your way (unless of course, you're lucky or your dad works at Universal). Many music companies that do interning won't even cover your expenses. One place I intern'd at a few years back said they'd only pay 75% of my expenses because I lived out of London at the time. I lasted a month and £400 out of pocket.
With writing work, you're looking at building up a portfolio probably for a couple of years before any of the national mags will look at your work. Even then, they'll probably ignore the 100s of emails you send them. And you'll probably get offered something when someone you met once at a gig name drops you.
I think DiS is actually being nice about paying expenses and offering aspiring writers this opportunity. A year ago, this wasn't the case. My advice is to get as much experience as you can whilst you're in university, interning and working for free then (if you can afford it). It will save you a couple of years out of university.
Or get a job that's not in the music industry. You'll be a lot less poor. :)
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is there ever going to be the
second part of this feature? Because I really would love to know how I might go about getting some of my material reviewed...
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