This thread relates to this news story: http://tinyurl.com/5kfmme
It's another opportunity to go round in circles on the old racism debate, and for most you to look silly falling over yourselves to prove how non-racist you are.
Apart from the fact the usage of the word 'nigger', i don't really see the phrase as being overly negative, more neutral. The phrase in no way makes black people look bad, at least I don't think. An attempt to escape slavery isn't a negative thing or something to be ashamed of, is it?
Is this another case of an overly-sensitive public (as was the case with Patrick Mercer)? Would an aggressive backlash lead to the trivialisation of 'genuine' racism?
So, you're David Cameron, what do you do? Sack the good Lord? Say the words were misplaced but no harm was done? Not get involved?
So many querstions...

He said something he should have had
the social intelligence to not say, and he apologized for doing so.
Case closed.
"It was common parlance when I was younger, put it that way"
How fucking old is this man!? 150?
73, I believe.
I didn't read the 20th century sentence (FAIL)
ANyway, he shouldn't be sacked, what JustJay said.
Is Cameron asking you for advice on what to do?
He'll have to step down.
If he was Labour you'd be on your highhorse about it.
'Apart from the fact the usage of the word 'nigger''
Is that not enough for you?
No, it's not.
And theat's what i'm talking about when I say trivialising 'genuine' racism.
Just because
he wasn't saying 'burn the blacks' it's still a racist attitude to have, to refer to 'niggers' negatively in a metaphor.
^this
thanks!
Nope.
I made it clear at the start the phase is not negative toward black people. If you think it is, then please explain.
but it says the phrase originally
referred to the 'problem' of escaping slaves hiding in woodpiles.
It does.
And as I said, as far as i'm aware, attempting to escape slavery is nothing to be ashamed of. If anything, it makes white people look stupid.
no but it's the fact that
the phrase refers to it as a PROBLEM.
as Pigfoot outlined much more eloquently below.
A very good defence.
hey CG
if you don't believe it to be offensive to blacks, i wonder if you'd willing to undertake a practical demonstration
"blacks"
urgh, i lose
london lite yesterday had a
'blacks ______' (can't remember) headline, which made me doubletake a bit, i don't think i've ever seen the word used in that sense.
What do you mean by 'practical demonstration'?
erm
call random black guys/girls "nigger" for a few days, and see what happens
I too
would like to see Cliche test the neutrality of the statement
I don't really have time to go
into the reason referring to a nigger in the woodpile is offensive. I've got work in a bit and I need to get changed. The meaning is basically that there is something bad/shady hidden in the document. It's a phrase which to me suggests the person saying it would see a nigger in the woodpile as a problem to be solved and the whole phrase strikes me as pretty dehumanising. It's just a horrible turn of phrase.
you just don't understand
^ yes this is a South Park reference
Exactly
If he's too dumb not to use a phrase like that when making a public speech, then he's too dumb to represent the party.
grovelling public apology
visit to racism rehab a la Jade Goody
I think it shows him to be hugely out of touch
1. For not even understanding how emotive that word is (it's probably the single most offensive word in the western world at the moment.)
2. As a Lord, he's supposed to represent the country. Including black people. And in my experience, they don't tend to like people using that word. It's pretty demeaning.
Whether it's racist or not is kind of a side issue. I think it is personally, but it's a very unhelpful (for the Tories) reminder of the sorts of people who still populate the party.
I actually don't think he should lose his job
old people can just be silly sometimes.
That's the Bernard Manning school of apathy
it's bollocks.
If he was an MP
hed have stepped down by now.
But because hes a lord, and henceforth unelected, he gets away with it.
He hasn't 'gotten away with it' yet.
true true.
More to the point
If hes so out of touch with modern language and sensitivities, how can he be expected to have a grasp of modern society, and henceforth be fit to be a part of the governmental apparatus of the UK?
how many MPs
do you think are actually in touch with modern language and sensitivities? It's not just the Lords.
well, exactly.
He's not part of the Governmental apparatus.
BOOM!
Pedantry over.
Sooooorrrrryyyyy :P
"legislature"
fine.
Oh fuck off.
Seriously. It's a fucking offensive phrase and an offensive word. Do people commonly swear in the House of Lords? Have you ever been called a nigger by some skinhead threatening you with an iron bar? No. So just fuck off. This is a fucking non-issue.
^this
but with less swearing.
^ This is my favourite response.
I put the swearing in because I knew you'd love it.
^ this
but with more swearing
Ive changed my mind. It's fucking ridiculous frankly that the word should even still figure in his vocabulary.
It's 2008.
He shouldn't have used that word.
That's pretty much the end of it. I don't really care if he gets sacked or not. I've never heard of him and I've no idea what he does, and I don't want to get involved in party politics debates that are largely pointless.
It's just plain and simple to me that he shouldn't have used the word.
If used that word in my workplace
I'd be probably given an official warning of some sort at very best.
At worst, I might get fired.
He used it in his workplace (is he not being paid to be there?), therefore similar rules should be applied.
Regardless of the context
And his job
involves not being a PR disaster for his party, which this is. Especially if they don't sack him.
he should be sacked
but he won't get sacked because everyone knows David Cameron and the rest of the tories are massive racists themselves.
The Tories can't be racist,
they have a black MP (and a damn good looking one at that).
That Derek chap off of Big Brother?
2nd favourite BB character ever
behind Anna, the lesbian nun
I can't really remember that many.
I was a big fan of Shahbaz though. I stopped watching two years ago, I assume nothing groundbreaking has happened in that time?
TWINS
AN ALBINO
Yeah, I'll keep it turned off then.
I was in love with her
full, actual love
No, he just worked for the party,
he wasn't an MP.
while now people with 'modern' attitudes
may see the escape from slavery as a noble and positive thing the phrase itself doesn't.
His use of the phrase is to illustrate what he sees as the hidden negative aspects of the bill:
"The Homes and Communities Agency is not a body to which we object in principle. As the minister has explained, it is an amalgamation of the Housing Corporation and English Partnerships. Of course, the nigger in the woodpile, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has already pointed out, is that it still incorporates what I call the hangover of the new towns legislation. If it were not for that, we would have little difficulty with the foundation of this agency."
The last sentence of the quote only goes on to enforce this view.
Although it, of course, does not mean that he has any feelings of hatred or suspicion directed toward the black population of this country.
It's an old turn of phrase that he really shouldn't have fallen back upon and whose dual meaning was probably never even considered for a split second before it left his lips.
Perhaps he should be sent on one of those Diversity and Equality Workshops that local gov't is so mad-keen for. ;)
.
My thoughts:
the phrase is undoubtedly racist, there is no question of that
BUT
the bloke is old, he seems sincerely apologetic for saying it and I'm not sure it's right to condemn someone outright for embodying the attitudes of the times they grew up in, particularly when they were very quick to acknowledge that those attitudes are outdated and grossly offensive.
also
i think somebody using outdated words and expressions without thinking doesn't necessarily mean they are out of touch with modern times, they just recourse to the idioms and slang terms of their youth, and I'm sure we'll all do it at some point. Just, luckily for us, the idiomatic speech we have grown up with doesn't tend to be grossly offensive.
In conclusion:
the phrase is racist, but his usage of the phrase, whilst potential evidence against him, doesn't necessarily confirm beyond all doubt that he is a racist or meant it in a racist way.
which isn't to say that he isn't racist either
i just think, in this particular case, he ought to be given some leeway, especially considering his social class and age.
it would be different if it had been a young bloke who had said it.
I think his age is pretty irrelevant.
As a child my mum had a dog called Nigger. I don't think she'd consider naming a pet that now.
His use of this phrase just goes to show how out of touch with society this retarded old giffer is.
NB:
My use of "retarded old giffer" is entirely ironic, ok?
yeah and there is no evidence that
this guy frequently, if ever, uses the word nigger, it just slipped out, not necessarily because he is a racist, but just because he was brought up with a certain vocabulary and set of attitudes and sometimes it can be very difficult to escape the attitudes of your youth
he is obviously perfectly aware that the phrase is terribly inappropriate. it's not like he's unrepentant. i'm also sure he wouldn't name a dog Nigger.
^ this
I tend to agree with you, RockNRollMassacre. Accidentally using a metaphor which, in his younger days, was acceptable to use is a very different thing to deliberately referring to a person (or naming a dog) by a now-extremely-offensive term.
And I think his age is relevant. I bet no-one here's brain works as well and efficiently (particularly when it comes to choice of phrase when speaking in public) when they are 73 as it does now.
drowned in sound is pretty cool isnt it?
chill out guys
he'll be dead soon
INTERESTING SIDE NOTE
I believe it was reported that the leader of Nottinghamshire County Council used THE SAME PHRASE a month or so ago in a Council debate and had to apologise. APOLOGISE?! Now, you can perhaps excuse Lords cause they're largely a bit mental and excentric and haven't a clue whats going on (if I were DC I'd boot him out, and I think he will, but thats not my point), but the leader of a Council?!
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=133965&command=displayContent&sourceNode=133948&contentPK=20807521&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch
See
Nottingham sucks ¬¬
two points:
a) Its the County, not the City Council, we're ace.
b) I live in Leicestershire.
So there :p
SHOOT THE RUNNER SHOOT SHOOT THE RUNNER!
quiet you
NottinghamSHIRE then :P
YAY me too!
I know you do
that was my point. It can't all be giant glo-sticks on poles can it.
Apologise only? What a total cunt.
He should have been sacked. Just as this Lord should go down big style.
...
Let the punishment fit the crime: He should be lynched.
or be called a nigger?
A honky