Today I was considering JAGing but pretty much instantly decided against it… I was thinking about how I have an album that’s just been released in the UK, but I have no UK press representation (very expensive) or someone doing the JAGing for me. Most reasonable sized labels have people that go online and big up their artists under false pretences on blogs or websites. They have advertising budgets so websites and magazines are kind of obliged to review their albums, and they have press people who harass journalists until they review stuff.
I know it’s probably such an obvious thing to ponder, but I was mulling over how much these things influence the music that I listen to, and to a certain extent, my musical taste and everyone else’s. I don’t really put too much weight on what reviews say, but if I see coverage of something everywhere it makes me want to go and at least see what it’s like.
Also, I’m kind of interested in how a band like Battles (just one example) can release music over a fair period of time and be virtually unknown, then sign with Warp and really quickly become so heavily featured (I’m talking about their first album really). Perhaps press/ ad coverage is a stamp of approval for some people? If I’m honest about it – it works on me quite often. And I would say that the Warp thumbs up would probably make me even more interested.
The music that I release isn’t very well known at all, but I have about four LPs out this year (granted - some of them will have a PR company behind them). This album has had some really great reviews and features here and there but has been largely ignored by the music press – perhaps it’s terrible… It probably is. But all the magazines/ papers on my mailing list instantly wanted to know who was doing press and what other places were covering it, as if this would legitimise them writing about it in some way. I found it a bit depressing – especially as most of them came back with an “it’s great response” and then never reviewed it. Maybe if I’d had a press company working it then it would be no different. Who knows?
I know JAGing is mostly done on here by unsigned bands, but I know for a fact there’s a fair bit of it done covertly also for more established acts. I’m always a bit shocked at that, but I wondered if there was this whole façade – JAGing, press, ads etc that actually did have a hold on my musical taste (as much as I don’t like to admit it), and that basically my brain is being bought off. Maybe I’m subconsciously finding excuses for no press on my record!
I read about some new law that’ll stop things like JAGing happening on Amazon, where authors sign in and write reviews of their own books. I’m sure publishers do this, but less well-known authors doing it will be the ones caught out I suppose.
I just wondered if anyone has had similar thoughts.
This turned into an essay by mistake.
I'd been thinking about posting something similar
It's quite obvious that all the pluggers/PR/labels are going to have a strong online presence, and just as obvious that they're not going to be ignoring what is probably the busiest UK music board.
The whole 'the Arctics were discovered by fans on Myspace' thing was undoubtedly the result of a clever campaign. They were signed with a PR company before they made it, which would explain why they'd said they had never heard of Myspace. What would be more incredible is the idea that there are no professional pluggers on here. And some of them are quite likely well known and respected members of the boards - people would be likely to know and respect their opinions.
Any nominations for the ringers?
Oh, go ahead and JAG your album - I think you've deserved it after that post.
/\ This is the ULTIMATE guerilla JAG
True
NO!
This is: http://tinyurl.com/5jnfce
all very interesting and everything but...
can we just hear your music ;)
yeah, post a link!
i can't believe after all that you didn't bother!
i have no problem with people plugging their own stuff, be it bands or labels so long as it's not done in the JAG style.
it's free exposure after all but i find very few people actually bother to check stuff out sadly...
Replying
Yes, I thought those were probably obvious points I made. It's been an eye-opening thing not having a PR company in the UK.
Pitchfork said to my US label - "he's not a big enough artist to review". Following this, they reviewed it when a friend of one of the reviewers gave them a CD.
I got close to signing the LP with a well-respected UK label and I got about 100 emails from writers for no good reason. Then when I didn't, none of them ever got in touch again. I just find it a bit weird.
A magazine like The Wire has only ever reviewed my stuff when it’s had something to do with two leading UK independent labels. I’ve got to say the NME (for all the NME bashing on here) has been the best – they don’t seem to care about labels or PR companies. In my experience – can’t vouch for anyone else.
So, I sometimes feel like the power resides with the PR people and the label you're on. Obvious point again perhaps.
Do you ever get that thing where you play something to a friend who just ignores it then comes back a year later saying “have you heard this?” after all the press has run or they signed to Warp/ Domino/ XL?
It’s just the slight frustration that a CD should be judged as it is – so it’s more meritocratic. This isn’t just because of my own experience; it happens to lots of people I know who I think are amazing. I suppose that’s the way it goes. And I’m always getting caught up in the hype around bands also, so I’m guilty of it.
JAGing is funny. I’m not going to do it.
I was just interested to hear what other people might think about all this and give a musician POV.
JAG
tease
I don't have anything to say that isn't covered on The Kinks - Moneygoround
but I agree.
Also We Should...
try and get JAGing into the dictionary. Like googling.
Maybe I'm A Sinister
person at a record label. JAGing for attention.
One of my favourite recent things on DIS was the interview with the band who won the T Mobile Unsigned thing or whatever it was called. I found it interesting to read about it from their perspective. I imagine there are a fair few musicians that read DIS and, like myself, can get caught up in small pockets of the music industry that frustrate them. As someone who makes music for a living, and a massive music fan I wonder about the view from inside and outside.
I've gotta keep my posts to one sentence from now onwards.
It's not a JAG if your honest
like you have been.
Ah, c'mon
I wanna know who you are!
I Really Am
Nobody.
Tease...
flirt ;)
Plus...
I'd probably have to remove DIS from my favourites and never read this thread again. I'm a sensitive person. I once didn't get out of bed for a day after I read a bad review.
so you're frustrated that people only care about the meritocracy and "success breeds success" mental
Or did I get this wrong?
fuckbeans I put it all at the top
I can't be bothered to reiterate
Kind Of...
I think things should be MORE meritocratic ie. an album should be judged as worthy of being reviewed or written about based on the reviewers/ editor liking it, rather than which artists a PR company has taken on.
Or that perhaps people (myself included) could think for themselves a little more rather than looking to press people/ EYOE/ Pitchfork/ labels for a stamp of approval.
I've benefited from all the above, so it's hypocritical to a certain extent.
I just really had my eyes opened by my recent experience of having no PR company.
This is probably true of all human endeavour though
History is written by the winners, there's probably been a great number of artists of all mediums who were ignored in their time and faded out of memory since the dawn of man. Popularity has and always will be the single most crucial factor in people's approval or disapproval, just now it comes from popularity amongst disperate small groups. I realise this isn't quite exactly what you were talking about, but music doesn't exist in a vacuum, I think if you are going to record and want people to listen you have to embrace all facets of the machine. Otherwise just keep it for your own amusement.
man I talk alot of shit
.
Yup
I often wonder why bands protest about "selling out". Surely turning your album into a product and giving it to a small indie label is a lesser form of the thing that they moan about? If people were that bothered, just don't release it.
I personally do embrace most "facets of the machine." There are certain sides of it that I hate, and so avoid those like the plague. Infact I avoid most of it. Yeah, I'm not grumbling about it - it's been sort of cathartic droning on about these things. And I am genuinely interested in other opinions on the matter.
fair doos
:)
Is that you
Travis Morrison?
Haha!
No - is that the guy that got a really bad score on Pitchfork? I actually got an OK review and it was a pretty interesting read. Well written.
Well thought out, interesting stuff.
Just one question though: I know what it is to JAG but what does JAG mean / where does it come from? Is it an acronym? Abreviation? I've always wondered.
There's
a good thread explaining the genesis of it somewhere on the board.
I tried a search a while a go...
...unsurprisingly there were about a gazillion results to sift through.
I think JAG
was the name of a band that did the first well known JAG as it where.
yes
a band called JAG posted bigging themselves up only to be greeted with hundreds of posters simply replying:
"JAG!"
"JAG!"
"JAG!"
"JAG!"
"JAG!"
etc
Here!
www.drownedinsound.com/articles/280135
interesting thread
what's the moral of the story?
GET A PRESS PERSON!!!
The only way you're going to get people who haven't heard of your music interested is by... "track record".
If a plugger comes to them who they've worked with before, the journalist is going to listen.
If the CD arrives from a label that they've heard of/admire/have reviewed before, they're going to listen.
If it's produced/mixed/guest by so and so who worked on this album... you get the idea!
I'm sure you know all this...
Basically, if you're cold sending journalists CDs from artists they've never heard of... they ain't going to listen. they don't have time
Anyway, blah blah blah
JAG away!!!!
I Think...
The thing that I'm saying is I do have a good track record. The journalist has maybe even given me a great review before. They have heard of me. It's on a good label. I've been working with such and such a person, remixing bla bla bla. I know the answer is a press person, but the US label couldn't afford the 2K it would cost. Hence it not happening.
I'm not trying to moan about it in any way whatsoever (I've had some good press), I'm just saying that it was interesting to see how much control PR people have over what music is covered - therefore who becomes popular.
I recently got put in an annual list in a music publication. I got about 50 emails the day it came out, asking me to do this that and the other. Which was great, but loads of them came from people I'd been in contact with beforehand. I was thinking "I'm the same person as I was yesterday, with the same back cat, why the contact now?" I suppose it's that power that astounds me and makes people decide to call, rather than your ability. And that's what got me thinking.
I hope that makes sense. Just musing rather than complaining.
you don't sound like you're complaining
:)
Yes, I agree, it's UNBELIEVABLE the amount of difference a well co-ordinated release campaign makes
You make some very good points.
Certainly the bands I've known who've worked with PR/radio pluggers have suddenly found the people turning them down are the people writing about them once there's someone involved.
What it comes down to I think is people get sent fuckloads of music and obviously if there's a PR involved with good taste in music they'll trust them and be more interested and think "well if they like it maybe I will..."
My band's first single
was sent out by me to a number of music websites, including this one
It was reviewed by NONE of them
My band's second single was worked on by a plugger. The same websites were sent promos
It was reviewed by ALL of them!
In the end, the Battles album
did well because of many other things aside from the almost uniformally good reviews.
It makes me laugh when bands think getting a PR will launch their career. The whole thing usually comes naturally once a band has a bit of a buzz and, y'know, good songs and live show. Do you think about eighteen months ago Foals were going, 'if only we had a PR! And a radio plugger!' then we could get reviewed on shit websites and be signed! They might of or maybe they just concentrated on their songwriting and playing live.
It tends not to eb so much bands themselves though
as managers and small labels if they get involved. I mean whilst the bands obviously should be left to concentrate on songwriting and playing life, it is part the manager/label's job to increase the band's profile and maximise potential sales.
True
Although I know from talking to them that they, literally overnight, got offered loads of things once their Warp signing was confirmed. From people who had previously ignored their emails.
Yup, I think a lot of bands live in la la land and think that it's always down to someone else if they don't get big. But there seem to be so many (often random) factors involved in a band being 'successful’. And often success is judged on how many reviews/ features/ ads a band has. Not by everyone, I might add. I know that's an obvious point - and a basic must commercially speaking.
Good Point...
It may be something as simple and practical as that.
Although I think it's a little more sinister on occasions - some people don't know what they like until others say they like it.
However, loads of journalists are amazing and I've always been turned onto new music by reading something passionate and persuasive so... They must get sent so much crap sent to them.
I'm always so happy to meet someone who knows what they like rather than just knowing about what other people like.
Yeah, I'm rambling. I suppose the moral of it is: That's life!
I wonder
would it be legitimate and respectworthy to say "I like what other people like" if the act of liking the same thing as another person was in itself what you enjoyed about music. Then you're being true to yourself even though you're not creating your own opinion. Trying too hard to stake out your own defining taste would then be untruthful to yourself.
Probably...
I don't have a problem with people liking music because others do.
Yeah. I don't like those reactionary types who dislike stuff because others like it either. Or just because they don't want to be seen following others.
I'm actually not sure why this PR thing happens as journos are strong minded types mostly. Practical reasons - as discussed? Maybe it's because physical press figures are falling and editors go for what they think are the more popular choices.
I think there's a saturation point coming up in music journalism. I don't know what'll happen. I suppose it's all confused by the fact that indie music is now pop music and underground stuff is where indie once was. Where's the underground? I suppose it's still there strong as ever but reactionary type journos are taking a while to find it and in the meantime it seems like some publications are flapping about a bit. I for one am fed up of reading about the same bands in every paper, magazine, blog for a week solid. That's well co-ordinated PR. It's giving me a headache. I'm being vague.
I think it's human nature
to an extent.
You see these 'chase the lady' hustlers on the street, and they get a little crowd around them. Then people walk by a wonder what it is that's drawing everyones attention. And the crowd gets bigger. Most people bugger off when they actually see what it is, but they can't help checking it out.
Try staring up at some imaginary thing on the street - you'd be amazed at the amount of people that just can't help but glance upwards to see what you're looking at.
When it comes to music, there's undoubtedly a hierarchy of opinions. If a regular poster on these boards gave a tip far more people will take notice than if a first time poster did. Which is why I'd be suprised if there aren't regular users who post in a professional capacity here.
I mean it is difficult
but I think it's similar to how film companies don't read unsolicited scripts. Most people do need someone else to say they like something for them to think it worth giving it attention.
On the one hand it's obviously bad when that's just 'cos they don't want to get caught liking something they're not "supposed to" and to go against a critical consensus but I think often it is the practical thing that there's a vast load of CDs they have to listen to and they need to find a way of deciding what to give their attention...
sigh
dare I ask...? who do people use for PR and plugging purposes and how much did it cost? While we're at it who to stay away from. I'll admit I know little about this area but this thread has been very helpful, thank you :)
For An Album
The smaller decent ones cost about 1k - 2k. But I think they wildly differ. There is an immense amount of satisfaction from doing it yourself. But also, as stated above, it can be a little depressing and humiliating. It's good to have to eat a small portion of humble pie sometimes though.
Can I Be
an undercover reporter? I need more gossip. Less long-winded answers.
I thought maybe some pluggers would show their faces, although I guess that would blow their cover.
pluggers
Are easy to spot on forums with lower traffic like God Is In The TV, SoundsXP and This Is Fake DIY. Spot them on those forums and they'll likely have a similar username and posts on here. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's incredibly obvious like a guy on here a little while back interning for One Little Indian going on about Rose Kemp and other OLI artists. Goldfrapp had a particularly useless plugger too.
a plugger will work for no money
if they like the music enough.
trying to make a crust from music involves doing a LOT of speculative work, i.e for no money, in the hope that if the artist you work for (for free) ever gets massive, they'll look out for you later on!
And then of course there's no guarantee that they will...
I was
talking about press people mainly. I've really no idea about pluggers costs.
I've been told that the responsibility of JAGing is often something given to work-experience people.